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Ralex
Greeting PMC forums users!
As time has progressed, we are aware that the current structure of our forum is both lacking and ineffective in both usability and clarity. We have sat down long and hard at looking at how to restructure the forums in order to make the navigation and classification of the threads easier to find, and to bring the content you want to see first.
As such, we are looking for your own inputs into the structure.
A few ground rules about this though, so you do not get carried away:
A) This will likely be a full forum restructure, so do not expect anything to stay outright. If there's no value that we can see, expect it to disappear.
B) We do not need a full structure from users. If you only want to offer a suggestion for a part, feel free!
C) This would only be a structure change. Actual functionality of the forum is not changing. We will not change how threads look, but will change how they are grouped.
D) This change will result in a rules change in order to address the new structure. Just because the rules say you can or can't do it now does not mean it will not change. You can suggest rule changes if they are fitting with the new structure.
So give us your ideas and thoughts about the forum structure! What works, what doesn't, what would you change if you could?
As time has progressed, we are aware that the current structure of our forum is both lacking and ineffective in both usability and clarity. We have sat down long and hard at looking at how to restructure the forums in order to make the navigation and classification of the threads easier to find, and to bring the content you want to see first.
As such, we are looking for your own inputs into the structure.
A few ground rules about this though, so you do not get carried away:
A) This will likely be a full forum restructure, so do not expect anything to stay outright. If there's no value that we can see, expect it to disappear.
B) We do not need a full structure from users. If you only want to offer a suggestion for a part, feel free!
C) This would only be a structure change. Actual functionality of the forum is not changing. We will not change how threads look, but will change how they are grouped.
D) This change will result in a rules change in order to address the new structure. Just because the rules say you can or can't do it now does not mean it will not change. You can suggest rule changes if they are fitting with the new structure.
So give us your ideas and thoughts about the forum structure! What works, what doesn't, what would you change if you could?
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I want the option to start on the Table of Contents and have recent threads in a list on the side like it was before. The recent threads list is hardly relevant for me most of the time since it seems to be flooded with server ads and other recruitment. I'm aware that you can exclude certain sections from that feed yourself, but it seems to never save my settings when I change it and I've just given up on changing them again.
Agreed. Recents are a nice place to visit but the Table of Contents made more sense as the front page, and not everybody notices it's there.
User settings were broken after launch for a while, but it's been fixed. I've unsubbed from servers for a long time.
In my opinion the should enlarge the size of replies, because currently they feel more like comments than replies, which is the main thing I don't like.
Also it would be nice to be able to see a short excerpt from the original post in the sidebar, like you used to be able to, or if not by hovering over it should be visible.
Also it would be nice to be able to see a short excerpt from the original post in the sidebar, like you used to be able to, or if not by hovering over it should be visible.
Replies have been bugging me and I didn't know why. Now I know why. xD They do indeed feel like comments. It doesn't really have that discussion feel.
Amen to that. One of my core complaints with the system.
What are your other core complaints?
I'll start with the current one, and say that while it's commendable to go for consistency in design, forums are fundamentally different from comments. Comments are simply not on the "same level" as forum posts. I consider the OP of a thread to hold similar, if not the same validity as subsequent posts. Under the current system, subsequent posts seem almost immaterial compared to the OP in comparison. It simply doesn't feel like a forum. That's really the largest one, but a few things bug me about the structure as well.
> The big subscribe button besides a username. It would be lovely if that subscribe button actually subscribed you to a thread, but as it stands, there's not really a point to having a big button to subscribe right in the spot that it's at. Again, it's the distinction between forums and everything else. It's good to have the design reflect the rest of the site. I find the philosophy to be overdone when you're literally making a thread's OP just another content submission with the same UI, such as that subscribe button. Forums differ, and a subscribe button on the forum typically has a different point than just "subscribe to user".
> Two other points were covered already, and so are somewhat repetitive. Restructured forum intros for better navigation and better clarification of rules/what each section is for, as suggested by Karrthus, and a table of contents page to avoid the blob that is every thread thrown into a pit. I can see why that's a potentially valid design choice; reddit has a similar appearance and Steam game forums/group forums don't believe in tables of contents, period. That said, aside from my personal distaste of any structure that has the landing page as a blob of threads, in this case it simply doesn't work due to the thread spam. At the very least, were the table of contents to be permanently disposed of, a formula would have to be created to make each section have better representation based on forum type as well as activity (which would result in the serves forum having far less representation as it does now). That wouldn't be the simplest thing to add; a table of contents, far simpler.
> This is more relevant to something that would go into the tickets forum, but while I'm going the full distance, I'd like to note that the post has weird behavior in regards to formatting once you edit it. If that hasn't been reported, I could do more thorough testing and put a ticket together for that.
> The big subscribe button besides a username. It would be lovely if that subscribe button actually subscribed you to a thread, but as it stands, there's not really a point to having a big button to subscribe right in the spot that it's at. Again, it's the distinction between forums and everything else. It's good to have the design reflect the rest of the site. I find the philosophy to be overdone when you're literally making a thread's OP just another content submission with the same UI, such as that subscribe button. Forums differ, and a subscribe button on the forum typically has a different point than just "subscribe to user".
> Two other points were covered already, and so are somewhat repetitive. Restructured forum intros for better navigation and better clarification of rules/what each section is for, as suggested by Karrthus, and a table of contents page to avoid the blob that is every thread thrown into a pit. I can see why that's a potentially valid design choice; reddit has a similar appearance and Steam game forums/group forums don't believe in tables of contents, period. That said, aside from my personal distaste of any structure that has the landing page as a blob of threads, in this case it simply doesn't work due to the thread spam. At the very least, were the table of contents to be permanently disposed of, a formula would have to be created to make each section have better representation based on forum type as well as activity (which would result in the serves forum having far less representation as it does now). That wouldn't be the simplest thing to add; a table of contents, far simpler.
> This is more relevant to something that would go into the tickets forum, but while I'm going the full distance, I'd like to note that the post has weird behavior in regards to formatting once you edit it. If that hasn't been reported, I could do more thorough testing and put a ticket together for that.
As a very trivial aside, I wouldn't mind seeing a more clear rule, if one exists, for posts aimed at subscribers to be made from wall posts. Forum posts dedicated only to subscribers of one person are unnecessarily public if the content excludes anyone that isn't a subscriber, especially if it includes content with a stipulation that I recently saw that I'll summarize: "go away if you didn't subscribe to me before I made this post. <post asking specific question for what to make from subscribers>"
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I'll think about the first part. The only reason they are the size they are is for consistency with the site & submissions. We wanted them to feel like they were part of the same website (and potentially re-use this code for the submission comments in the future).
I like the idea about the excerpt; I don't remember that being there in phpBB.
I like the idea about the excerpt; I don't remember that being there in phpBB.
Totally
Make it so I can find MY posts again. I don't like having to click on forums then realizing I have to go back to my profile agains to look at the posts I've been in.
Coming soon, yes.
I know right? I said the same thing!
Duz dat mean we're 'great minds'?
Heck yeah! We think alike, don’t we?
As said by many others, I wholeheartedly agree in the sense that server posts need to be completely removed from the equation in the forums. I think PMC Forums still have a use these days, but for those that are posting, their posts won't get seen at all because of the constant spam of servers that 9/10 people are 100% uninterested in joining. Keep the servers under the server page, not in the forums that were designed for a complete different use.
we have talked about things like this, but i might as well put my comments here so we can access them all and the community can see some of the stuff we mentioned
one of the main things we need, aside from how the forums actually layout etc this thread was more for sorting out the sections before we look at the actual forum layout
we need something somewhere that tells people how the forums work, explain to them what each tab does, how to get their threads up to the top in them.
we need to sort out our sections, lots of them are unused or used incorrectly: for example communities/roleplay is used for forum roleplays only, however people use them to recruit for roleplays offsite and there is nowhere to recruit for them, one would assume /teams however that is under minecraft and people would assume it is for minecraft related teams only, which means we should see if we can move /teams to a non minecraft related section in order to accommodate for all recruitment
the hub section is now being used incorrectly as well, it is being used to advertise discord servers which we don't want, we wanted to regulate where discord servers were posted (minecraft servers and teams only, but this can be discussed)
communities/games is a dead section, nobody has played forum games for a long time, and the section is misused to advertise for other things
for sections that are used, we need to have guidelines in place to say "this is what you post in this section" so then people have no excuse to post in incorrect sections. We are aware that the server section does take over however it is one of the few sections that is used correctly in most places.
one of the main things we need, aside from how the forums actually layout etc this thread was more for sorting out the sections before we look at the actual forum layout
we need something somewhere that tells people how the forums work, explain to them what each tab does, how to get their threads up to the top in them.
we need to sort out our sections, lots of them are unused or used incorrectly: for example communities/roleplay is used for forum roleplays only, however people use them to recruit for roleplays offsite and there is nowhere to recruit for them, one would assume /teams however that is under minecraft and people would assume it is for minecraft related teams only, which means we should see if we can move /teams to a non minecraft related section in order to accommodate for all recruitment
the hub section is now being used incorrectly as well, it is being used to advertise discord servers which we don't want, we wanted to regulate where discord servers were posted (minecraft servers and teams only, but this can be discussed)
communities/games is a dead section, nobody has played forum games for a long time, and the section is misused to advertise for other things
for sections that are used, we need to have guidelines in place to say "this is what you post in this section" so then people have no excuse to post in incorrect sections. We are aware that the server section does take over however it is one of the few sections that is used correctly in most places.
I would like to add on to this that we should think about the YouTube section as well, it usually becomes cluttered by one or two people who are doing a new series and trying to promote themselves, however this is unfair on other people who want to use it, i think we should look at trying to enforce you-tubers to only have a single thread to promote their work on
Perhaps also enforcing that in the other sections as well, including the servers? As it seems that's where most the massive flow of recently posted topics come from. This is in terms of people re-creating the same thread to advertise their server. I also am finding lots of misleading threads.
An example: "Looking for staff!"
- User only displays IP.
This can be rather annoying to have threads that are short and pointless, as in some cases people tend to do it for the experience points.
An example: "Looking for staff!"
- User only displays IP.
This can be rather annoying to have threads that are short and pointless, as in some cases people tend to do it for the experience points.
its true we have been slacking on some of the enforcement, we try to enforce that users have 2 threads max for their server, one for recruitment and one for the actual server itself, it is definitely something to look into now that the forums give exp for threads, we used to have guidelines of how server threads could be set out, threads that are just IP/ip spam are not tolerated and should be reported, but i definitely think we should look into enforcing it more, it is true that the server section is a world of spam and it will be a difficult project to sort it.
we already have rules in place regarding people remaking their server threads over and over, they should be reported so the threads can be take down
we already have rules in place regarding people remaking their server threads over and over, they should be reported so the threads can be take down
That's presuming that everyone here on the forums knows what's going against the rules and what isn't. We'd literally be critiquing every single thread that comes in and for some of us, we don't know what goes specifically against the rules and what doesn't in terms of thread content. Due to this, we tend to leave those threads alone. Multiple thread advertising would be an easier case, but that doesn't stop people from deleting their old threads to create a new one. I believe that it's also up to the community to help out the PMC team as you've mentioned, but for some of us it gets confusing and not everyone wants to hungrily "report", they tend to exit the thread and move to the next, essentially ignoring it.
Edit: Re-reading what you've replied to me. You mentioned about thread re-creation going against the rules? Even if this was the case, how is the general community supposed to know what's a bumped thread and what's re-created? A normal user of the forums would have no clue of a thread that appeared a few weeks ago being re-created and posted recently.
Edit: Re-reading what you've replied to me. You mentioned about thread re-creation going against the rules? Even if this was the case, how is the general community supposed to know what's a bumped thread and what's re-created? A normal user of the forums would have no clue of a thread that appeared a few weeks ago being re-created and posted recently.
i agree that the first priority right now should be making a much more detailed concise set of rules as currently its just whatever karr makes up
one thread per person in servers is enforced its just a little hard when people start posting on multiple accounts about the same server as its hard to recognize that they are doing it you have to actually recognize the name or ip of that server and then try to find the other account which posted about it which is time consuming and annoying. i think an ip/discord logger should be implemented which would then stop spam. personally though i think that regardless of how well spam rules are enforced in servers its just not the same as the old days, you can now start a server for free with ten plugins
one more thing
(this is more directed towards the community), a new forum structure is all well and good, however as currently the most active forum mod we also need more members to work alongside us and report things, we have hardly any members that report topics, so many other people just comment on the thread telling the poster that they need to take the thread down etc, people need to report threads, especially high offending ones that contain sensitive/inappropriate content, i cannot see your comments on the offending threads, you need to report them.
(this is more directed towards the community), a new forum structure is all well and good, however as currently the most active forum mod we also need more members to work alongside us and report things, we have hardly any members that report topics, so many other people just comment on the thread telling the poster that they need to take the thread down etc, people need to report threads, especially high offending ones that contain sensitive/inappropriate content, i cannot see your comments on the offending threads, you need to report them.
Karrthus I will be happy to report posts to help out the moderators. I do currently but I admit that I should help more since I have the time.
11/27/2017 11:21 pm
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That looks easy on paper, but I doubt it would be quite as effective in practice, or particularly simple to implement without having a number of possible false alarms, bugs and other hiccups. Sounds to me like the issue is better handled +1 or two folks to check the section and a clear set of rules at the top (not that many people even read them, given the amount of people that post "looking for ___" threads).
"Wanna join my server?" has to go.
when we tweak the rules i think we should have a look at formats and/or guidelines for how people post their server threads
Wanna join MY server? ;))))
The forums need icons like the site menu for sections such as Table of Contents. This would make it easier for members particularly new members to find what they're looking for.
On a separate note, I personally would like to see the "Your Posts" section added back in from before. For people who don't know this section only contained posts you've replied to or created.
I already know there's a section where you can edit what appears in your feed but it needs to be simplified and made obvious.
I also think the following sub-forums should be added.
- Build Teams
- Hiring Staff (Servers)
On a separate note, I personally would like to see the "Your Posts" section added back in from before. For people who don't know this section only contained posts you've replied to or created.
I already know there's a section where you can edit what appears in your feed but it needs to be simplified and made obvious.
I also think the following sub-forums should be added.
- Build Teams
- Hiring Staff (Servers)
An actual front page displaying all the sections and recently posted threads under each section would be a nice start. It's organised rather than spitting out all your threads, even if it's under a certain topic category.
There's suggestions, but without a few functionality changes, I don't really see the point. One of my core complaints is the way threads look, some of my suggestions include how the forum functions, and then the table of contents has already been suggested.
In short, meh.
In short, meh.
10/24/2017 4:05 am
This reply was removed by the poster or a moderator.
You can go to your profile, hover over the "forum discussion" tab, and click on the button that says "<number of posts here> Posts". The feature never left, though a few less button clicks would be nice.
I will add a method of getting there from the forums themselves.
We should change how you bump your forum thread. Maybe you could make it so anyone except yourself can bump your thread.
that would turn into crazy spam
How. Everyone bumps their own thread, so if we modified that so only other people can bump your thread, that would take away needless, pointless, idiotic threads. I've seen a thread with more than 300 replies, and more than 200 were from the person who made it. And as a result, that thread was in the PMC forum activity for more than 3 weeks straight.
the idea of the new forums is bumping isnt needed, if the thread stays active it wont vanish, threads left untouched for a month with no activity will become inactive, meaning they no longer appear in the "active" tab, people bumping threads wont do anything, the thread will already be in the "active" tab for at least a month and can be acted on accordingly, bumping doesnt need to exist
I would like my search function back. I don't like spending 20 minutes sorting through my 900 posts to find what I'm looking for. It's making transferring info from my sci-fi thread a real pain.
A more powerful search is on the list, but it's gonna be a while. Searching is a pain to implement. I have a rudamentary system working, but I didn't want to put too much energy into a MySQL searching engine if we're going to push it all to solr in the future, which will allow for advanced features like "search for my posts between January and June with "sci fi" in the title".
Thank you for the update. It's definitely going to make my life easier.
Also, what if there was a karma-like system where you lose xp for reported and deleted replies, so that it's not possible to spam posts for xp, because they'll lose xp instead of gaining.
I somewhat agree.
I'd like to see a module on profiles that show how many approved reports a username has made. That way someone can show off how much they're helping the community.
I'd like to see a module on profiles that show how many approved reports a username has made. That way someone can show off how much they're helping the community.
i for one think this is an excellent idea :P karr
if the count started from now there would be like three people with these numbers on their profile, people do not activity report things which makes it harder for us as staff to find everything
well maybe those 3 people deserve to be mentioned ;)
you do loose exp from having your thread/post if you spam threads for exp karrthus will have ya
Here's an idea that could be pretty cool. Perhaps each user could be able to customize what they see on the sidebar (as well as possibly other things), meaning that beyond just all recent PMC forum activity on appearing on the right, users would be able to add certain topics that they want to the side so they could always have a recent forum activity under a specific topic without needing to go to the table of contents. For example, if this were to be implemented, I would be able to add, say, a tab for servers, news, and games.
Thought it'd be cool!
Thought it'd be cool!
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